OK here's a question

[caveman35 (deleted)]

Alright, I'll bite - not many topics so I'll give this a shot.

It seems to be a fairly common misconception that Wicca is an ancient Celtic religion. It was after all it's creator Gerald Gardner who made the claim that it was some pre-Christian Pagan religion. Which simply wouldn't be the case. Not that that matters, but Gardner's lineage does in fact recognize that Wicca in it's earliest form is no older than the 1930's.

Now I hope that won't be offensive, It's simply meant to bring me to my point. Which is, as I read through profiles/groups etc. I read so many who feel they are descendants of some ancient "Wiccan" religion.

So my question is - How many here feel that Wicca is an ancient religion? Why or why not?

The great Gaels of Ireland are the men the Gods made mad.

For all their wars were merry, and all their songs were sad.

[beleaver]

`I think it doesn't really have a set origin it seems to come from many into an orthodox system of beliefs. hope it helped.

[llawencorwynt]

Yes, I follow the old ways and I am Wiccan. Gerald Gardener did not create wicca. Folks were practicing wicca for ages, all the way back to the paleolithic times. Gerald just gave it a new name. Some of the rites are very old.
If you take a 1955 chevy, and decide to change the name to 2010 Ford 150, does it actually make it a ford. Sort of the same way with the term wicca. Gerald just called it that. In my oppinion it was to help the public to embrace it. If he said witchcraft, he might have had a little harder time bringing it to the publics eye.
So yes I follow the old ways, not the ways of 1930 to present.
I hope this is helpful.
May all that read this be blessed
Merry part
Llawen Corwynt

[brushguy (deleted)]

`I beliieve Wicca, like many forms are very old, pre-christian era. I'm certain it was invented in this century, but long ago. Read the roman, greek, and Norse mythologies. Brian Even the sumerians practice the craft in their ways.

[taishamorgaine (deleted)]

`Wicca is new, many of the rituals are new too.
However earth based goddess religion is not new. And thats what I see as witchcraft not Wicca.
My ancestors were following their own worship for a long time before other people settled here permanently.
And we saw the earth as our mother. We moved and worshipped with the seasons as many ancient cultures did. Many people don't even realize than Native Americans have solstice celebrations!

[martinariel]

`WICCA is a term used by Gerald Gardner to ease the publics mind into accepting the old ways/old religion. I am a Pagan who happens to be a practicing witch, but i am not a member of WICCA does that invalidate my beliefs or standing, no it does not. It is what you feel is right for you that mattersnot what others think as ling as you harm none do as you will. The olde Religion is an Earth based faith/belief, one where we honor the Earth Mother, our traditions are many and varied as well as ancient in origin. What Gerald Garden did was just put a new name on it, so that people would not associate it with negative images.

[martinariel]

`Many apologies for the mispelling.

[caveman35 (deleted)]

beleaver wrote: `I think it doesn't really have a set origin it seems to come from many into an orthodox system of beliefs. hope it helped.



Sorry I've been so long in my response time. You're right in saying it has several origins, OTO, Golden dawn, as well as a host of other more cultural roots. This however doesn't make the religion ancient, it more over would make the religion eclectic - which means it draws from many sources.

Gardner himself was a bit of an arm chair anthropologist, archaeologist, and historian if you read the biographies dedicated to him. This is why he was able to draw from these many religious philosophies and form them into a singular religion in and of it's self.

Basically it is a lot like you or me drawing from several documented sources to form our own religious and/or spiritual connection.

Thank you for your response.

[caveman35 (deleted)]

llawencorwynt wrote: Yes, I follow the old ways and I am Wiccan. Gerald Gardener did not create wicca. Folks were practicing wicca for ages, all the way back to the paleolithic times. Gerald just gave it a new name. Some of the rites are very old.
If you take a 1955 chevy, and decide to change the name to 2010 Ford 150, does it actually make it a ford. Sort of the same way with the term wicca. Gerald just called it that. In my oppinion it was to help the public to embrace it. If he said witchcraft, he might have had a little harder time bringing it to the publics eye.
So yes I follow the old ways, not the ways of 1930 to present.
I hope this is helpful.
May all that read this be blessed
Merry part
Llawen Corwynt



No, It really wasn't, you're perpetuating misinformation.

I can assure you no one was practicing Wicca in the Paleolithic era. Never prior to Gardner's creation of Wicca had there been, in any time or any place a duality of divinity such as that which is found in Wicca - In fact this would be where Gardner's Christian back ground would come into play.

Pretty much, what Gardner did was give and already existing 'one god' aspect a girl friend - but yes he did name his creation as well. He actually too a word which had evolved into old English from earlier Germanic sources. A 'Masculine word to denote an male practitioner of magic, and or sorcery, as opposed to the feminine word 'Wicce.'

Gardner had made the very same claims, actually his were that Wicca was a Gaelic religion from the Isle of Mann - Later, in the 60's after curiosity of scholarship became peeked his claims to historical authenticity were debunked, which very nearly wiped the new religion off the face of the planet once and for all. If it hadn't been for figures like Buckland and Doreen, etc. reworking things it may well have.

Wicca is a religion of balance, duality, and modern philosophy. This isn't to say the religion is not a valid one, or a beautiful one - It is only to say that it isn't ancient.

Power of An Daghdha's heart be in you!

Have a very happy Oiche Shamhna!

Slan go foill!

[caveman35 (deleted)]

brushguy wrote: `I beliieve Wicca, like many forms are very old, pre-christian era. I'm certain it was invented in this century, but long ago. Read the roman, greek, and Norse mythologies. Brian Even the sumerians practice the craft in their ways.



Which is all well and good that they practiced 'the Craft' in their ways, since it is easy to practice 'Witchcraft' (though in the times you've cited it would have been magic and mysticism and not the Craft.) and be a member of literally ANY religion, since Witchcraft isn't a religion but the simple practice of magic. Wicca OTOH in it's modern usage is a specific religion, and not practiced by any of those cultures named. Magic yes - Wicca no. :)

[caveman35 (deleted)]

martinariel wrote: `WICCA is a term used by Gerald Gardner to ease the publics mind into accepting the old ways/old religion. I am a Pagan who happens to be a practicing witch, but i am not a member of WICCA does that invalidate my beliefs or standing, no it does not. It is what you feel is right for you that mattersnot what others think as ling as you harm none do as you will. The olde Religion is an Earth based faith/belief, one where we honor the Earth Mother, our traditions are many and varied as well as ancient in origin. What Gerald Garden did was just put a new name on it, so that people would not associate it with negative images.



Actually most modern reputable scholars feel that early religion may well have consisted of the sun, stars, and food sources i.e. fish, deer, buffalo etc. etc.

Now the facts are these. There are NO surviving unbroken ancient religions from European sources. They have each been stomped out and reconstructed from surviving texts, archaeology, and good old fashioned educated guess work. The roots - The basic ideas are indeed ancient, the practices themselves however are fragmented at best.

Not trying to steer anyone away from the umbrella of Paganism mind you, I am an Irish centered Celtic reconstructionist Pantheist myself, I follow the ways of the oes dána - the Filidh, and from there aspire to Druid practice. So it does me no good to detour anyone. My only motive is to breath truth into a dark sea of misinformation.

[k8tfir3 (deleted)]

`i believ tht wicca has always been around just not recognised as wicca

[caveman35 (deleted)]

k8tfir3 wrote: `i believ tht wicca has always been around just not recognised as wicca



Again - Wicca is a modern construct, which any actual study on the subject will prove. Even the Gard wiccans and other BTW sects concede to that fact.

I don't get it, why does it need to be the oldest religion to be authentic?

There are literally an infinite number of Pagan religions out there which are not Wicca by any stretch of the imagination, shall we then label them Wicca just so it validates our own preconceived notions of what we feel Wicca is? Even if they're wrong?

That would be a fine example of cultural, what happened to 'harm none?'

[winnigats]

` I feel that Wiccans are not remembering that exact basic principle of what our ancient religion is based off of ". . . An' ye harm none, do what ye will." EIGHT WORDS!
I am not trying to be oh so very religious and peddle this down any throats, but merely advise. It is not man's place to judge in actions we do not comprehend. Pagans have survived from the beginning of time and without a doubt in my mind will forever survive. Weather Wiccans came first or not really does not seem the most pressive, or at least to me it doesn't.
Alright, I done, I have but my two cents in. X3

[mountainwizard]

Merry Meet folks. To the gent who started this thread, you seem awfully absolute and certain about what didn't happen anywhere in Europe while you were not actually there and watching, and even if you had been there to watch, would you have recognized what you saw?
When the practicers of a religion are systematically exterminated, traces and texts and vague stories are what you get, which might protect a thriving underground community at some times and a few wack jobs hanging on to practices they don't understand at others.
I also am not necessarily convinced as scholarly fact that any unbroken line of initiates stretches back more than a few hundred years. But I'm encouraged for example by the text Aradia the Gospel of the Witches which came from Italy in the 1700s, and is available as etext online. I find it useful to have a category I call 'lore' which amounts to stories beliefs and practices authentically important to some people but not necessarily 'true' in an academic sense. Its good to know the lore, and it is useful and informs our lives, but that doesn't make it literally 'true.'
But in another way, the Shaman or Witch of a neolithic tribe used every trick every story every technique s/he could dream up or learn about to do what needed done by hook or crook. They were bold experimenters by necessity, with no time to worry about pure lineage or anything else but what worked, and then teaching what worked. That tradition is unbroken.